The Let Them Theory: The Mindset Shift Everyone Needs | Pax8 - The Athena Rebels Podcast Episode 11
How does the Let Them Theory help reduce burnout and improve mental health in the workplace?
Setting healthy boundaries stops burnout at its source . When you establish clear parameters for what you will and won't do at work, you reduce the stress that fuels burnout and create an environment where people feel psychologically safe. The result: teams perform better because they understand exactly what's expected of them.
Burnout doesn't happen by accident—it's the direct result of missing or unclear boundaries. Stress thrives when boundaries are absent , creating a cycle where people feel responsible for problems that aren't theirs to solve. This is where the Let Them Theory enters the picture, as explored in the episode .
Boundaries create the safety teams need
When leaders and teams embrace this approach, something shifts. Psychological safety emerges when people understand their parameters —what they're responsible for, what they're not, and where the lines truly are. This clarity removes the anxiety of overstepping or falling short, which is one of the largest drivers of workplace stress.
The mechanism is straightforward: clear boundaries mean people know what to focus on. When people understand exactly what they're working with , they can perform at their best instead of wasting energy on decisions, problems, or emotions that belong to someone else. This has a direct, measurable impact on both individual wellbeing and team output.
This principle is especially powerful in cultures where boundaries are rarely modeled or discussed. Many organizations inadvertently reward boundary-crossing—staying late, solving others' problems, absorbing stress—which eventually leads to burnout. The Let Them Theory reverses that dynamic by making boundaries an explicit, supported part of how work gets done, as detailed in the podcast discussion .
What is the Let Them Theory?
The Let Them Theory is a mindset framework introduced by Mel Robbins in her 2024 bestselling book. It centers on the idea that you cannot control other people's choices—only your own responses and energy. By releasing responsibility for outcomes you cannot influence, you reclaim agency over your mental health and stress levels. The theory has gained widespread attention, even inspiring tattoos and viral TikTok discussions.
The psychological impact extends beyond individuals. When a leader sets healthy boundaries, they give permission to the entire team to do the same. This modeling effect transforms workplace culture from one of guilt-driven overextension to one of sustainable, focused effort. The result is lower burnout, better retention, and stronger performance—because people are working within realistic limits, not constantly pushing past what's sustainable.
Want to understand how this translates into specific leadership practices? Listen to the full conversation where Sophie Dowsett-Smith and Lamara Thorne dive deeper into how this theory applies in real workplace scenarios.
What are the key leadership practices that emerge from applying the Let Them Theory in the workplace?
The Let Them Theory rests on three core practices: pause before you react , redirect your energy into what you can control, and set clear boundaries without over-explaining. Applied across teams, these practices foster better collaboration, deeper understanding of people, and a workplace where psychological safety becomes the norm—unlocking the full potential of high-performing teams.
The foundation is simple: most workplace friction comes from investing energy into situations and people's choices that lie beyond your control. Before reacting to a challenging situation, create space between the trigger and your response. This pause is not avoidance; it's recalibration.
When leaders model this practice, teams notice the shift immediately. Rather than defaulting to reactivity, meetings become more thoughtful. Decisions are made from clarity, not emotion. This is especially critical for women in leadership, where the burden of over-explaining decisions and justifying boundaries often drains energy that could fuel strategy and innovation. As discussed in this episode , setting boundaries without excessive justification is a radical act of leadership.
Collaboration strengthens when people feel safe making their own choices. The Let Them Theory removes the false responsibility leaders often carry—trying to fix every outcome, every person's decision. Instead, teams shift to empowerment: individuals own their choices, leaders guide the environment, and the result is psychological safety.
This mindset also deepens how leaders understand their people. The episode explores how this framework transforms workplace relationships , moving from judgment to curiosity—asking why someone made a choice rather than assuming incompetence or malice.
Building Psychological Safety Through Boundary-Setting
Psychological safety isn't built through endless availability or people-pleasing. It's built when leaders model clear boundaries and demonstrate that saying "no" or "I need to focus on X" is not a threat to the team—it's a gift. Boundaries create trust because they're predictable and honest .
For teams that adopt this mindset at scale, the effect compounds. People stop waiting for permission to take initiative. They stop seeking endless validation. They bring their best energy to work because they're not drained by trying to manage their leader's emotional state or over-explain every choice. The full conversation dives deeper into how these practices reshape team dynamics , including the role of self-awareness and vulnerability in leadership.
Psychological Safety : An environment where team members feel safe taking interpersonal risks—speaking up with ideas, admitting mistakes, asking for help—without fear of embarrassment, punishment, or rejection. It's the foundation of high-performing teams. If more people and leaders embrace the Let Them Theory, workplaces would transform. Energy currently spent on micromanaging outcomes or obsessing over others' choices would redirect toward strategy, innovation, and genuine connection. High-performing teams don't emerge from control; they emerge from clarity, boundaries, and the freedom to make meaningful choices.
How does the Let Them Theory differ from passivity or avoiding responsibility?
Let Them Theory is not about ignoring problems or avoiding responsibility. It's about empowering yourself to choose where you invest your energy and advocate for your own needs, rather than draining yourself trying to control others' behavior or choices.
Setting Boundaries, Not Stepping Back
The core distinction lies in intentionality. Passivity means doing nothing—staying silent, tolerating issues, accepting disrespect. Let Them Theory, by contrast, is active and deliberate: you pause before reacting , assess what's within your control, and then act from a place of clarity rather than frustration.
The method has three concrete steps. First, you pause—often using a five-second count to interrupt the automatic reaction. Second, you redirect your energy into what you can actually control : your boundaries, your voice, your choices. Third, you set those boundaries without over-explaining or justifying yourself to others. This framework has resonated so widely that the concept became a number one bestseller on Amazon in 2024 and gained viral momentum on TikTok, where people even got tattoos of "let them" as a reminder.
The key insight: you own your voice while protecting your resources . You're not abandoning responsibility—you're reclaiming agency by refusing to let others' behavior dictate your emotional state or drain your time.
As explored in this episode of The Athena Rebels Podcast , the theory applies directly to workplace dynamics—especially when colleagues or leaders are making choices you disagree with or that frustrate you. Rather than absorb that frustration or try to manage them, you acknowledge the situation, set your boundary, and move forward.
"It's not about ignoring any kind of problems or avoiding any sort of responsibility—you need to make sure that it's an empowering thing for people to do."
Mel Robbins — Best-selling author and former lawyer, creator of The Let Them Theory and The Five Second Rule. Known for translating psychological insights into practical, accessible tools for overcoming procrastination and reclaiming agency in daily decision-making.
The book itself explores this tension through chapters on comparison torture and emotional boundaries , showing how the theory dismantles the guilt many people carry when they stop trying to fix or manage others.
What does the book chapter on comparison torture teach about dealing with envy at work?
Stop the self-criticism by recognizing that what others have achieved doesn't diminish your own potential . The Let Them Theory teaches you to let others get on with their path while you focus entirely on yours—you don't know the full picture of what it took them to get there, and obsessing over their progress only stalls your own.
Envy at work often masquerades as legitimate concern about your own progress. In reality, it's a form of self-inflicted torture. When you catch yourself thinking someone else has a better salary, a higher position, or more impressive material success, you're not actually gathering useful information—you're feeding a comparison loop that erodes your energy and focus.
The core insight here is simple: you have zero control over what others choose to do or achieve . What you do have control over is where you direct your attention and effort. Every minute spent wondering why someone else got promoted is a minute you're not investing in your own development or clarity about what you actually want.
As the hosts explore in the episode , this mindset shift isn't about pretending obstacles don't exist or avoiding responsibility for your own choices. It's about reclaiming your mental and emotional energy from the comparison trap and investing it in deliberate action on your own priorities.
From self-judgment to intentional focus
Comparison torture typically starts with a small thought: "They got promoted faster than I did." But the real damage comes next, when you internalize it as "This means something about me." That's where self-criticism becomes the actual barrier —not the other person's success, but your reaction to it.
Breaking free requires a deliberate mental move. When envy surfaces, ask yourself: What specific action am I avoiding by focusing on them? The Let Them Theory flips the script: instead of trying to understand or judge their path, you zoom back to your own lane and ask what's actually within your control right now.
The book's chapter on this topic, discussed in The Athena Rebels Podcast episode , illustrates how workplace hierarchies and role variations often hide invisible effort, timing, luck, and personal circumstances you'll never fully see. Judging someone's outcome without that context is like reviewing a film after watching only the final scene.
To hear how this principle extends to real workplace scenarios—including how to apply it when someone actually irritates you or disagrees with you— listen to the full discussion on Listenly .
Comparison torture: The practice of repeatedly measuring your own worth, progress, or possessions against those of others, typically leading to feelings of inadequacy, envy, or resentment. According to the episode, this habit actively distracts you from your own potential and wastes mental energy that could be directed toward your actual goals.
How can the Let Them Theory be applied immediately when responding to someone who irritates or disagrees with you?
When someone irritates or disagrees with you, pause for five seconds, count in your head, and tell yourself "let them" before responding. This creates space between you, the other person, and the situation, allowing you to refocus your attention back on yourself and respond consciously rather than react emotionally.
The method is straightforward and can be deployed in any moment of friction. Rather than defaulting to an immediate reaction—which often escalates tension or leads to words you regret—the five-second pause gives your brain time to shift from reactive mode to responsive mode.
Saying "let them" internally serves as a mental anchor, a short phrase that signals to yourself that you're deliberately stepping away from trying to control or fix the other person's thoughts, feelings, or choices. This reframes the situation as one where you reclaim your own agency instead of being pulled into their emotional space.
As explored in The Athena Rebels Podcast , this approach is not about passivity or avoiding difficult conversations. Instead, it's an empowering tool that helps you engage from a place of clarity and choice rather than reactivity.
The beauty of the five-second technique is that it's portable—you can use it in meetings, in one-on-one conversations, via email, or even in text exchanges. The moment you feel the irritation or disagreement rising, you have a concrete intervention available to you right then.
Why the pause matters more than the response
Many people assume that a good response requires the right words. In reality, the quality of the pause determines the quality of everything that follows it . Those five seconds allow your nervous system to shift out of defensive mode.
When you're irritated, your brain is in a heightened state. The urge to correct, defend, or convince is almost automatic. The pause interrupts that automaticity. By introducing a simple ritual—counting, saying "let them"—you give yourself permission to step out of the urgency and reclaim your thinking mind.
This technique aligns with a broader insight discussed in the episode : the most powerful move is often to stop trying to change someone else and redirect that energy back to managing your own state and choices.
You can still have the difficult conversation, set a boundary, or disagree. But you'll do it from a place of intention rather than impulse, which almost always results in a better outcome.
"It's not about ignoring any kind of problems or avoiding any sort of responsibility or you need to make sure that it's an empowering thing for people to do."
Sophie Dowsett-Smith — Academy Leader at Pax8, host of The Athena Rebels Podcast. Sophie brings practical mindset tools into workplace conversations, focusing on actionable shifts that help teams navigate conflict and stress without burnout.
One concrete detail from the episode worth exploring further: the viral nature of the Let Them Theory on TikTok, where the phrase "let them" became so popular that people were getting tattoos of it —a sign of how deeply this simple framework resonates across audiences.
Take five seconds to pause and count in your head before responding to irritation or disagreement.
Say "let them" internally to create mental distance from the other person and the situation.
Use the pause to shift from reactive mode to conscious, intentional response.
This technique is empowering, not passive—it reclaims your own agency without avoiding responsibility or difficult conversations.
What is the core principle of the Let Them Theory as a mindset shift?
The Let Them Theory teaches you to stop trying to control other people's choices because you fundamentally cannot —you can only control your own decisions and actions. By shifting your focus to what you are actually responsible for, you reclaim energy that was being wasted on situations beyond your control.
The core insight is deceptively simple: most of the stress we experience comes from attempting to manage outcomes we don't own. At work, in relationships, in leadership—we exhaust ourselves trying to shape choices that belong to someone else. The Let Them Theory invites you to release that burden.
As discussed in this episode of The Athena Rebels Podcast , the theory emphasizes that this shift is empowering, not permissive —it's not about ignoring problems or dodging responsibility. Instead, it's about drawing a clear boundary between what belongs to you and what doesn't.
The Boundary Between Your Responsibility and Theirs
The real power of this mindset lies in distinguishing what you can actually influence. You are responsible for your own effort, your communication, your integrity, and the clarity of what you ask of others. You are not responsible for whether they choose to follow through, believe what you say, or make the decisions you'd prefer.
This distinction matters most in high-stakes environments—sales teams, leadership roles, family systems. Sophie Dowsett-Smith explores how this principle applies to workplaces like Pax8, where managers often find themselves emotionally drained from trying to fix choices made by their teams.
When you accept that you cannot control another person's decisions, your entire relationship to failure shifts . You stop internalizing their rejection as your failure. You stop burning out trying to convince them. You show up with your best work, set clear expectations, and then release the outcome—because the outcome lives in their hands, not yours.
A Mindset That Went Viral
The theory's reach speaks to how universally relevant this struggle is. Mel Robbins' book The Let Them Theory became the number one best-selling book on Amazon in 2024, and the concept went viral on TikTok to the point where people were getting tattoos of "let them" written on them. That viral moment wasn't hype—it was recognition. The full conversation between Sophie Dowsett-Smith and Lamara Thorne dives deeper into why this simple principle resonates so deeply in professional settings.
The true test of this mindset is whether you can hold it in the moment—when someone you care about is making a choice you believe is wrong, when a team member isn't performing, when a deal might slip away. That's when you discover whether you've truly let go or whether you're still gripping.
Mastering Your Craft: Lessons from Limara Thorne | Pax8 - The Athena Rebels Podcast Episode 8
What is the relationship between reliability in small tasks and delivery on major commitments in sales?
Responsiveness and consistently delivering on what you say you will do are the essential indicators of a good salesperson . If you cannot handle small tasks reliably, you will never build the trust foundation necessary to close larger deals. Small wins create credibility with clients, and credibility unlocks major commitments.
Small actions, big consequences
Trust in sales is not built through grand gestures — it is built through consistent delivery on everyday commitments . Every small promise kept, every email answered promptly, every callback made on time signals to a prospect that you are someone worth partnering with on a significant deal.
When you fail to handle the small things reliably, you send the opposite signal. A client who cannot count on you to follow up on a minor request will never trust you to manage a complex, high-value engagement. As Lamara Thorne explains in the episode , the relationship between small tasks and big deals is not incidental — it is foundational.
Building trust through repetition
Major sales often take between five and twelve client contacts to close . Each of those touchpoints is an opportunity to prove your reliability. Returning a call when you said you would, sending information on time, and remembering details from previous conversations are the behaviors that separate top salespeople from average ones.
This pattern holds across the entire sales cycle. A prospect who sees you deliver consistently on small promises becomes increasingly confident that you will deliver on the larger commitment — the actual deal. The episode explores how this trust-building process works in practice at organizations like Pax8, where systematic follow-up and responsiveness are core to closing enterprise deals.
"It's about how do you become a chameleon without losing your authenticity."
Lamara Thorne — Strategic Consultant at Pax8 Academy. With 15 to 18 years in sales and starting her career in a support role at Nielsen 20 years ago, Thorne now mentors other sales professionals on mastering their craft. She is recognized at Pax8 for her deep expertise in B2B sales strategy and the human elements that drive deal closure.
This flexibility — adapting to each client's needs while staying true to your approach — depends entirely on the foundation of reliable small actions. When you have that reputation for dependability, clients give you room to adjust your style and approach. Thorne's discussion of authenticity and client adaptation reveals why your reliability on small tasks is the permission you earn to be more yourself in larger, more complex negotiations.
How should salespeople determine which activities drive the most success?
You need to go back and understand where success is coming from and how you can spend more time doing those activities. For example, at Pax8 Academy, they…
Why is mentoring and coaching important even for experienced or top-performing salespeople?
No matter where you are in your sales journey, you are always going to need support, mentoring, coaching, and honest feedback . Even world-class athletes at Olympic level maintain multiple coaches to identify blind spots and improve further. Difficult, honest feedback is more valuable than praise because it reveals exactly where you can improve.
The comparison to elite sports is instructive. Top performers across every field—from athletics to business—rely on external eyes and structured guidance. As Lamara Thorne explains in the episode , this principle holds true for sales professionals at every level, regardless of years of experience or track record of success.
Experience, while valuable, creates its own liability: the blind spots that come from doing something the same way for years . A person with 15 or 20 years in sales has developed habits, patterns, and assumptions that they no longer consciously examine. Without external coaching, those blind spots remain invisible. Feedback from a mentor or coach acts as a mirror, revealing what you cannot see from inside your own performance.
The quality of feedback matters enormously. Praise reinforces what you already know you do well; it does not push you toward growth. Difficult, specific feedback—the kind that points out where your approach falls short or where your technique could sharpen—is what drives continuous improvement. This willingness to seek out and act on hard truths is what separates practitioners who stall from those who keep advancing.
"Even the best sports people in the world at Olympic level still have coaches, sometimes multiple coaches, to further improve and identify blind spots."
Lamara Thorne — Strategic Consultant at Pax8 Academy. With 15 to 18 years of sales experience starting from a support role at Nielsen, Thorne has built a reputation as a sales authority. She now mentors others in the Pax8 Academy, helping both emerging and seasoned professionals develop mastery in sales as a deliberate craft.
Continuous improvement in sales is not optional once you reach a certain level of competence—it is essential. Markets shift, buyer behavior evolves, and technology changes. A detailed discussion of how long deals typically take to close reveals that most sales require multiple touchpoints between the fifth and twelfth contact—a reality that demands constant refinement of approach, messaging, and relationship management.
The deeper reason mentoring matters is that sales is not a fixed skill you acquire once and maintain forever . It is a dynamic discipline that requires you to stay curious, to remain open to critique, and to actively seek growth. A top performer who stops seeking coaching is choosing stagnation, even if their current results look strong.
Blind Spots: What You Cannot See Alone
One of the hardest things for any professional to accept is that their greatest weaknesses are invisible to them. A salesperson might think they are building rapport when a buyer perceives them as pushy. They might believe they are listening carefully when they are actually waiting for their turn to speak. These patterns, repeated hundreds of times, become so automatic that they vanish from conscious awareness.
A coach or mentor sees what you cannot. They notice the moment you interrupt, the tone shift when objections arise, the way you frame your solution without fully understanding the buyer's constraints. This external perspective is invaluable precisely because it targets the habits you have stopped noticing . Without it, you plateau.
For a more complete picture of how to identify and address these deeper issues, see the discussion on addressing root causes rather than surface-level challenges in sales.
Mentoring and coaching are not luxuries for underperformers—they are essential at every career stage, even for top performers.
Blind spots—patterns you can no longer see because they are automatic—require external feedback to be identified and corrected.
Honest, difficult feedback is more valuable than praise because it points to real areas for improvement rather than reinforcing existing strengths.
Continuous improvement is mandatory in sales because markets, buyers, and competitive dynamics are constantly shifting.
How long does it typically take to close a deal and why is consistent follow-up critical?
Only 2% of sales happen on the first or second contact —most deals close between the fifth and twelfth interaction. Most salespeople give up far too early, which is why persistence and value-driven engagement at every touchpoint are essential. In complex B2B markets like IT services, a single deal can take over three years to close when customers have existing commitments or long buying cycles.
The gap between expectation and reality in sales is stark. Many salespeople expect quick wins, but the data tells a different story. As Lamara Thorne explains in The Athena Rebels Podcast , the real work begins after the initial meeting—not before it.
The Follow-Up Survival Rule: Persistence Over Pressure
The problem is not time; it is abandonment. Most salespeople stop reaching out after two or three attempts, precisely when the actual buying conversation is just beginning to warm . This early surrender is the primary reason deals fall through—not because prospects lack interest, but because the salesperson lacks patience.
Value-driven follow-up means each touchpoint must move the conversation forward or reinforce genuine relevance to the prospect. This is not about pestering; it is about strategic presence. When a prospect has a long evaluation cycle or competing priorities from existing vendors, your willingness to stay engaged becomes a competitive advantage in itself.
"It's about how do you become a chameleon without losing your authenticity."
Lamara Thorne — Strategic Consultant at Pax8 Academy. With 15 to 18 years of sales experience spanning support and strategic roles, Thorne has built her reputation on understanding the psychology behind buyer behavior and the skill of genuine, adaptive communication. She mentors teams across the Pax8 Academy on mastering sales as a disciplined craft.
This principle applies directly to deal cycles. When you adapt your approach—your tone, your message, your timing—to each prospect's readiness without compromising your own integrity, you sustain engagement across months or even years. A deal that takes three years is not a failure; it is a reflection of market reality in industries like managed services and IT infrastructure, where budgets are locked and vendor relationships run deep.
The real discovery moment often arrives at the fifth, eighth, or eleventh contact—not the first. At those moments, circumstances may have shifted. A competitor contract may have expired, a new problem may have emerged, or budget may have freed up. Only salespeople still present will see that opening. Discover more about how to diagnose these hidden buying triggers in the full episode conversation .
What is the importance of addressing root causes rather than surface-level challenges in sales?
Surface-level problems are never the actual driver of a sale. Deeply rooted challenges are what truly compel a buyer to make a decision. By unpicking the layers with deeper questions and becoming an expert in the customer's industry, you uncover the real problems that matter—and build genuine rapport that goes far beyond pitching a solution.
In B2B sales, it's easy to stop at the obvious pain point. A prospect mentions a workflow bottleneck, a budget concern, or a compliance gap—and many salespeople jump straight into their pitch. But this approach misses the actual story driving the buying decision.
The real leverage lies in asking why, repeatedly. When you ask the question "why is this a problem?"—and then ask it again when you get the first answer—you start to discover the layers underneath. A missed deadline isn't just about time management; it might reveal fear of losing a key client, pressure from leadership, or a deeper organizational misalignment that nobody has been willing to name.
As Lamara Thorne explains in The Athena Rebels Podcast , sales fundamentally requires becoming an industry expert in the customer's world. This doesn't mean learning their product—it means learning their business model, their competitive landscape, their regulatory environment, and the human politics at play. When you walk into a conversation with that depth of knowledge, you're no longer a vendor; you're a peer who can ask informed questions that the customer hadn't even considered asking themselves.
"It's about how do you become a chameleon without losing your authenticity."
Lamara Thorne — Strategic Consultant at Pax8 Academy, with over 15 years of sales experience spanning from support roles at Nielsen to becoming a recognized sales authority. She now mentors other sales professionals on mastering the craft of sales as both a skill and a discipline.
The power of addressing root causes also shows up in the timeline of a sale. Surface-level solutions might generate interest fast, but real decisions—the ones tied to deeply rooted business challenges—take longer to close because they involve more stakeholders, more internal politics, and more organizational change. Yet those are precisely the deals that stick, that expand, and that turn customers into advocates.
There's another layer to this too. When you understand the root cause, you're not selling against other vendors on features or price. You're solving a problem nobody else even recognized. That's an entirely different conversation—one where you have real authority and the customer has real reason to move forward with you specifically.
The episode dives deeper into how to ask the right questions and how to build the industry expertise that lets you recognize root causes in real time. This is the work that separates transactional sales from strategic partnerships.
The Real Difference Between Diagnosis and Assumption
Many salespeople assume they know the problem before they've really listened. A prospect mentions a budget constraint, and the salesperson immediately starts talking about cost-effective alternatives. But the budget constraint might not be the real barrier—it might be a symptom of distrust, a lack of clarity on ROI, or internal political resistance.
True diagnosis requires curiosity, not assumptions. It requires sitting with the discomfort of not having all the answers. It means asking "Tell me more about that" instead of jumping in with solutions. When you do this consistently, you build rapport naturally—because the prospect feels heard, understood, and taken seriously.
This Athena Rebels episode also explores how long the typical B2B sales cycle actually is and why multiple touches are essential for uncovering these deeper layers—not through persistence, but through progressive deepening of understanding.
How should salespeople adapt their communication style to different personality types?
Sales is fundamentally about psychology and understanding people. The key is to become a chameleon without losing your authenticity. For example, if you are…
What is the typical conversion rate in IT sales and how should sales teams establish realistic goals?
In IT sales, conversion rates typically range from 30 to 50 percent for every ten prospects . To set realistic goals, you need to understand your baseline by collecting data on your own past performance and comparing it against market norms. Without knowing where you currently stand, it becomes nearly impossible to establish meaningful targets for the future.
The foundation of any effective sales strategy lies in data. As Lamara Thorne explains in this episode of The Athena Rebels Podcast , you cannot set goals in a vacuum . Sales leaders must first audit what they have already achieved—not to celebrate past wins, but to establish a clear baseline.
This baseline serves three critical functions. First, it reveals whether your current conversion rate aligns with industry standards. Second, it exposes patterns in your sales cycle that might explain why deals close or stall. Third, it provides the concrete numbers you need to justify targets to your team and stakeholders.
Understanding market norms vs. your own performance
The 30–50 percent conversion range represents a solid benchmark for IT sales environments. However, your own context matters far more than any industry average . A consultancy firm selling enterprise software solutions may convert at 40 percent across all their prospects, while a reseller focused on SMBs might sit closer to 35 percent. The difference reflects deal size, sales cycle length, and buyer complexity—not performance quality.
As detailed in the full discussion , understanding your business model is the first step. Are you selling to a niche vertical or a broad market? Is the average deal size $10,000 or $100,000? These factors directly influence what a "good" conversion rate looks like for you.
The three-step goal-setting framework
Lamara Thorne breaks down realistic goal-setting into a structured process. First, collect your historical data —every deal won and lost over the past 12 to 24 months. Second, calculate your baseline conversion rate across all stages of your funnel. Third, research what peer organizations in your exact vertical are achieving.
Only after completing these steps should you set targets. If your baseline is 28 percent and your industry average is 40 percent, a reasonable goal might be 32–35 percent within the next fiscal year. This approach removes guesswork and replaces it with grounded strategy .
"It's about how do you become a chameleon without losing your authenticity."
Lamara Thorne — Strategic Consultant at Pax8 Academy. With 15 to 18 years of sales experience and a background starting in support at Nielsen, Thorne now mentors sales teams across the Pax8 ecosystem on mastering both the craft and the psychology of closing deals in complex B2B environments.
Beyond the numbers themselves, Thorne also explores the human side of sales acceleration —how sales professionals must adapt their approach to different buyer personas while staying true to their core values and communication style.
IT sales conversion rates of 30–50 percent represent the typical healthy range; use this as a starting reference point, not a target.
Your own historical data is more valuable than industry benchmarks—calculate your baseline before setting any new goals.
Compare your baseline against market norms in your specific vertical to identify whether you are performing above or below peer organizations.
Set realistic, incremental targets that build on your baseline, avoiding the trap of arbitrary goals that ignore your actual context.
How does having sales targets and KPIs impact sales behavior and accountability?
You cannot manage what you do not measure. Metrics, targets, and KPIs are essential because they help you understand whether you are doing the right things and driving revenue. Clear targets give salespeople a defined responsibility and direction—whether that responsibility is new business acquisition or account management.
The role of sales metrics extends beyond mere tracking. Targets establish clarity within an organization, eliminating ambiguity about what success looks like and what each team member is accountable for. Without this framework, salespeople operate without guardrails, making it impossible to assess performance or identify gaps.
In the B2B context, where sales cycles can stretch months or even years, KPIs become guideposts for consistent effort and progress. As Lamara Thorne explains in the podcast , metrics transform sales from guesswork into a measurable discipline . They allow organizations to set their salespeople up for success by providing clarity on expectations and enabling data-driven coaching.
The impact on behavior is immediate and profound. When salespeople know their targets and how they are measured, they can prioritize their activities accordingly. This accountability mechanism ensures that effort is directed toward revenue-generating activities rather than busywork. It also creates a shared language between management and individual contributors—everyone knows the score.
Lamara Thorne — Strategic Consultant at Pax8 Academy. With 15 to 18 years of experience in sales, Thorne began her career in a support role at Nielsen before transitioning into sales approximately 20 years ago. Recognized for her deep expertise in B2B sales strategy and coaching, she now mentors professionals through the Pax8 Academy on mastering sales as both a craft and a discipline.
The structural benefit of KPIs also lies in their ability to reveal what is working. Targets create feedback loops that help organizations identify which strategies are effective and which need adjustment. This iterative learning is impossible without measurement. In competitive environments where resources are limited, this data-driven approach separates high-performing teams from those that plateau.
There is also a human dimension worth noting: clear KPIs can actually boost morale and motivation. When salespeople understand the rules of the game and can see themselves progressing toward their targets, it creates tangible progress rather than nebulous effort. The full episode dives deeper into how Lamara Thorne builds accountability cultures and how to structure KPIs in ways that drive both revenue and retention.
Why should every employee in an organization understand their role in the sales process?
Every person in your organization influences the customer journey at some point. A negative interaction anywhere—whether from finance, support, or operations—can damage how customers view your entire business. Sales is not a single pitch; it's the collective responsibility of building and maintaining relationships across every touchpoint.
When customers engage with your organization, they don't segment their experience by department. A poor interaction in billing, onboarding, or customer support registers as a reflection of your company as a whole. One bad moment can undo months of relationship-building work , which is why every employee must recognize their role in the larger sales narrative.
This understanding shifts the entire culture of a business. It moves away from the outdated image of sales as transactional—the stereotype of pushy salespeople or "cheesy car salesmen trying to push you something that you don't want." As Lamara Thorne explains in the episode , modern B2B sales is fundamentally about problem-solving: having a product or solution that genuinely addresses a customer's challenge. But that solution means nothing if a customer's experience elsewhere in the organization contradicts it.
Every department is part of the sales journey
Sales is not a single transaction— it's a continuous process involving multiple interactions at different stages . A receptionist greeting a prospect sets the tone. Finance clarifying pricing demonstrates professionalism and reliability. Implementation teams ensure the customer actually receives value. Each interaction either strengthens or weakens the relationship.
This is why training employees beyond the sales team is critical. When someone from operations understands they're helping close or retain a deal, they approach their work with a different mindset. They become invested in the outcome, not just in completing their task. That shift in perspective directly impacts customer perception and loyalty.
"It's about how do you become a chameleon without losing your authenticity."
Lamara Thorne — Strategic Consultant, Pax8 Academy. With 15 to 18 years in sales, starting in a support role at Nielsen approximately 20 years ago, Thorne has built her expertise on the principle that authentic problem-solving, not sales pressure, drives lasting business relationships.
Beyond the standard talking points, the full conversation covers how sales maturity develops over multiple customer touches —insight that applies whether you're working directly with buyers or supporting them from behind the scenes.
Customer relationships are built across the entire organization, not just during sales conversations.
A single negative interaction from any department can damage the customer's entire perception of your business.
Modern sales is about solving real problems, which requires every employee to understand and support that mission.
Employees who recognize their role in the sales journey approach their work with greater intention and impact.
What is the difference between traditional sales and consultative B2B selling?
B2B consultative selling is fundamentally about problem-solving and building long-term relationships , not closing deals through pitch-and-push tactics. Rather than the "always be closing" mindset of traditional sales, consultative B2B selling encompasses a vast journey and process with many touchpoints, all designed to understand and address a client's genuine business needs.
The traditional sales stereotype — the pushy car salesman or door-to-door pitch — thrives on transactional thinking and high pressure. But in B2B markets, the equation shifts entirely. Success depends on whether your product or solution can genuinely solve a problem for a specific person, team, or organization.
This distinction matters because the sales journey in B2B is rarely short. Most deals don't close on the first or second contact; research shows that most B2B sales actually occur between the fifth and twelfth contact with a prospect. A consultative approach recognizes this reality and builds trust and credibility across that extended timeline, as detailed in the Athena Rebels Podcast episode .
Beyond the pitch: relationship-building as the core skill
Consultative selling requires shifting your mental model entirely. Sales becomes a skill set that encompasses far more than a single transaction — it includes active listening, needs analysis, solution design, and sustained relationship management. You're not selling a product; you're solving a problem in partnership with your buyer.
In IT sales, for example, conversion rates typically range from 30 to 50 percent, and closing a major deal can take up to three years. This timeline reinforces why traditional transactional tactics fail: you cannot pressure someone into a three-year commitment. Instead, Lamara Thorne explains in the episode , the salesperson becomes an advisor, consultant, and trusted partner throughout that entire journey.
The emotional and strategic intelligence required is substantial. You must genuinely understand the buyer's world, their constraints, their goals, and their fears. Authenticity within adaptability becomes critical — a theme Thorne touches on when discussing how to remain true to yourself while flexing your approach to different personalities and organizational cultures.
"It's about how do you become a chameleon without losing your authenticity."
Lamara Thorne — Strategic Consultant, Pax8 Academy. With over 15 to 18 years in sales, Thorne began her career in a support role at Nielsen before transitioning into sales roughly 20 years ago. She is now recognized as a key voice on sales mastery at Pax8 and coaches others on transforming selling into both a skill and a craft.
If you want to understand how successful salespeople navigate complex team dynamics and maintain their edge over years in the field, the full conversation with Lamara Thorne on the Athena Rebels Podcast reveals the deeper patterns of mastery that this fiche only introduces.
B2B sales is fundamentally a problem-solving exercise, not a transaction or pitch; success depends on whether your solution genuinely addresses the buyer's needs.
Most B2B deals close between the fifth and twelfth contact, requiring sustained relationship-building rather than single-interaction closing tactics.
Sales is a multifaceted skill set encompassing listening, needs analysis, solution design, and long-term relationship stewardship — far broader than the "always be closing" mentality.
Consultative selling demands authenticity paired with flexibility: the ability to adapt your approach to different personalities and organizations without losing your core integrity.
The Truth About Juggling Work, Life & Expectations | Pax8 - The Athena Rebels Podcast Episode 9
What emotional barrier prevents some returning parents from fully reintegrating into their workplace?
Many parents who return from maternity leave worry so intensely about how others perceive them that they inadvertently prevent themselves from fitting in. This manifests as reluctance to be seen leaving early or guilt-driven overwork late into evenings to compensate for perceived absences — a self-imposed barrier that undermines genuine reintegration.
The Perception Trap: When Self-Doubt Becomes the Real Obstacle
Returning to work after maternity leave is already challenging. But for many parents, the hardest part isn't external — it's internal. The anxiety about being judged by colleagues creates a feedback loop of overcompensation that keeps returning parents in a cycle of guilt and exhaustion.
This emotional barrier operates silently. A parent might feel unable to leave at a reasonable time because leaving "early" signals that they're not fully committed. Conversely, they compensate by staying late, working through breaks, or taking on extra projects they don't have capacity for. The result is burnout disguised as dedication.
As explored in The Athena Rebels Podcast , this pattern affects not just the individual but their ability to show up authentically at work. When a parent is operating from a place of fear and self-imposed pressure, genuine collaboration, creativity, and team connection become nearly impossible.
Why the Stats Reveal the Scale of This Problem
The numbers are striking: over 80 percent of UK mothers report that returning to work after maternity leave is very tough . And when you isolate the tech sector specifically, the figures are even more sobering — over 50 percent of women in UK tech leave by age 35, suggesting that the reintegration struggle is not isolated to a sensitive minority but a systemic challenge.
What these statistics don't capture is how much of that difficulty stems from internal perception anxiety rather than external barriers. Policies exist — up to 52 weeks of statutory maternity leave with 39 weeks paid — but emotional readiness and workplace psychology matter just as much. This is the gap that Lamara Thorne discusses in depth , drawing on her own experience returning to work on a part-time basis after six months off.
"If a job's worth doing you do it as well as you can to your capacity and your ability and if you can't then you do need to look at is this right for me still."
Lamara Thorne — Team Member, Academy Team at Pax8, and working parent of three children with over 13 years of experience navigating the return-to-work transition. Thorne returned on a part-time basis of 30 hours per week after her first child was born and has since progressed significantly in her career while actively mentoring new hires through structured onboarding processes.
This quote captures the critical mindset shift needed: recognizing that overcompensation isn't loyalty, it's unsustainability. The real work of reintegration isn't performing commitment — it's honest alignment between capacity and role. The emotional barrier dissolves when a parent grants themselves permission to work within realistic boundaries rather than against them.
For a deeper look at how organizations can structure support systems to prevent this barrier from forming in the first place, the full episode covers concrete strategies like keeping in touch days and intentional manager conversations that help parents reintegrate without the guilt-driven compensation spiral.
The primary barrier to reintegration is self-imposed: parents' anxiety about perception often creates more friction than actual workplace policies.
Guilt-driven overwork and the fear of being seen leaving on time are direct symptoms of unaddressed perception anxiety, not genuine workplace demands.
Over 80% of UK mothers report returning after maternity leave as very difficult, with over 50% of women leaving tech by age 35 — pointing to a systemic issue rooted partly in internal emotional blocks.
Reintegration succeeds when parents align their work capacity with their actual ability, not when they perform unsustainable commitment to counter perceived judgment.
How can individuals proactively manage their own reintegration into the workplace after extended leave?
Take proactive control by scheduling structured meetings with your manager to understand business changes and reset clear goals , dedicating time to reconnect with colleagues across your team, and actively investigating how organizational structures have evolved during your absence. This self-directed approach works even when formal onboarding isn't provided.
Three steps to own your return
The first move is intentional conversation with your direct manager. Rather than waiting for a formal reintegration plan, book time to discuss what's shifted —new projects, team restructures, process changes, business priorities. This meeting isn't just a catch-up; it's your chance to anchor yourself to the current reality and jointly define what success looks like in your role over the next quarter. Lamara Thorne outlines this strategy in The Athena Rebels Podcast , drawing from her own experience navigating return to work.
Reconnecting with colleagues matters just as much as the manager conversation. Dedicate specific time to one-on-one conversations with team members and adjacent departments. Ask what they've shipped, what problems they've solved, what's stressed them. This rebuilds trust, restores your informal knowledge network, and positions you as genuinely interested in others' work—not just your own job. These touchpoints also often surface informal changes that formal updates might miss.
Finally, become a detective about organizational evolution. Look at your company org chart, review recent communications, attend all-hands meetings, and ask your peers open questions about team and business structure shifts. Understanding the landscape prevents you from operating on outdated mental models and helps you locate the people and resources you'll need. This active learning is entirely in your control, regardless of whether your employer offers structured onboarding.
"If a job's worth doing you do it as well as you can to your capacity and your ability and if you can't then you do need to look at is this right for me still."
Lamara Thorne — Team Member, Academy Team at Pax8. Lamara is a working parent of three who returned from six months of maternity leave 13 years ago on a part-time basis of 30 hours per week. She has since built a significant career at Pax8 and now actively mentors new hires, bringing lived experience and structured thinking to how organizations can support returning parents.
For context on the wider landscape, this episode explores the neuroscience of returning to work after maternity leave and reveals that over 80 percent of UK mothers report the transition as very difficult—underscoring why self-directed reintegration is so valuable. When you take the initiative, you're not passively waiting for organizational support; you're actively shaping your own re-entry.
What key onboarding strategy helps parents returning from maternity leave transition back into the workplace?
Keeping in touch days are essential for easing parents back into the workplace, allowing them to remain abreast of changes and maintain connection to colleagues and business direction. These should be part of a comprehensive re-onboarding process rather than a one-day orientation, extending throughout the entire employee journey.
Beyond the first day: structured re-onboarding over time
A single orientation day is insufficient for parents returning from maternity leave. The transition back to work involves far more than a refresh on office procedures—it requires gradual reintegration into team dynamics, updated systems, and organizational changes that have occurred during absence. As discussed in The Athena Rebels Podcast , this is where keeping in touch days prove crucial.
Keeping in touch days allow employees to visit the workplace, reconnect with colleagues, and stay informed about business priorities before their full return. This strategy reduces the shock of re-entry and helps parents mentally prepare for juggling professional responsibilities with parenting demands. The approach acknowledges that returning from maternity leave isn't a single event—it's a process.
Why this matters: the reality of returning mothers in the UK tech sector
The context behind this strategy is stark: 80 percent of UK mothers report that returning to work after maternity leave is very tough . In the tech sector specifically, the challenge is even sharper, with over 50 percent of women in UK tech leaving by age 35. These figures underscore why thoughtful onboarding isn't a nice-to-have—it's a retention and wellbeing imperative.
Parents returning from maternity leave aren't simply picking up where they left off. They're managing changed circumstances—personal, professional, and neurological. Lamara Thorne explores in the episode how structured re-onboarding, anchored in regular keeping in touch days, helps bridge this gap and signals organizational support.
"If a job's worth doing you do it as well as you can to your capacity and your ability and if you can't then you do need to look at is this right for me still."
Lamara Thorne — Team Member, Academy Team at Pax8. As a working parent with three children, Thorne has navigated returning to work after maternity leave firsthand. She took six months off after her first child was born over 13 years ago and returned on a part-time basis of 30 hours per week, eventually progressing significantly in her career at Pax8. She now actively mentors new hires through structured onboarding processes, bringing lived experience and practical expertise to workplace re-integration strategies.
Beyond the immediate re-onboarding period, Thorne emphasizes that organizations must understand the realistic capacity of returning parents . This isn't about lowered expectations—it's about aligned expectations and sustainable workload design. Whether an employee returns full-time or part-time, the keeping in touch days framework ensures they're never operating from a position of total disconnection.
Discover more about how parents navigate the challenge of balancing work and life during this transition in the full episode on Listenly .
Keeping in touch days allow returning parents to stay informed about workplace changes and maintain team connection before full re-entry.
Re-onboarding should be a structured, ongoing process—not a single orientation—to support successful reintegration.
Organizations must align workload expectations with the realistic capacity of returning parents, whether they work full-time or part-time.
80 percent of UK mothers report returning to work after maternity leave as very tough, making thoughtful onboarding crucial for retention and wellbeing.
How does returning to work after maternity leave impact brain chemistry?
Your brain chemistry fundamentally changes after having a child , a phenomenon that extends far beyond the temporary "baby brain" many expect. When you return to work, you're not simply stepping back into the role you left—you're navigating both profound neurological shifts within your own mind and significant changes in your workplace that have occurred during your absence.
The challenge of returning to work after maternity leave is not purely logistical. 80 percent of UK mothers report the transition as genuinely difficult , and in the tech sector specifically, over half of women leave by age 35. This isn't a failure of individual resilience; it's the collision of two simultaneous transformations: your altered neurobiology and an evolving workplace environment.
Your brain has undergone real structural changes
The chemical and structural alterations to a parent's brain are not temporary glitches. These neurological changes are foundational and persist , meaning you return to work not as the same person who left, but as someone with genuinely different cognitive and emotional wiring. Understanding this shift is the first step toward realistic planning and self-compassion during the transition.
As Lamara Thorne discusses in The Athena Rebels Podcast , the reality of returning to work after three maternity leaves taught her that preparation must account for both the personal neurological reality and the practical workplace landscape—especially in tech, where pace and pressure are often unforgiving.
Your workplace has moved on—and so have your colleagues
Colleagues, processes, and team structures have shifted during your time away, creating an additional cognitive load when you step back in. You're not returning to a static organization that paused and waited for you; you're joining a workplace that has evolved, and that evolution may not be fully documented or immediately visible.
This dual challenge—reintegrating into a changed environment while your own brain is operating under new neurobiological constraints—is rarely acknowledged in return-to-work conversations. The friction is real, and the episode explores concrete ways to navigate this convergence rather than pretending the transition is simply a matter of "getting back into it."
"If a job's worth doing you do it as well as you can to your capacity and your ability and if you can't then you do need to look at is this right for me still."
Lamara Thorne — Team Member, Academy Team at Pax8. A working parent with three children, Thorne navigated her own return to work six months after her first child was born, transitioning to a 30-hour per-week schedule. Over her 13+ years as a parent while building her career at Pax8, she has developed deep expertise in the real constraints of parental working life and now actively mentors new hires through structured onboarding.
The financial realities compound the neurological and workplace challenges. Full-time nursery care for a child under two costs approximately £14,500 per year in the UK , a figure that often exceeds the take-home salary of returning workers, especially early in careers. This economic squeeze forces many to make decisions that feel less like choices and more like survival calculations.
There's also a hidden layer in how organizations treat returning parents. The Athena Rebels Podcast explores not just the statistics, but the lived experience of managing three children while advancing in a demanding tech environment , offering practical insights often missing from HR-approved "return to work" frameworks.
What is the statutory duration of paternity leave in the UK?
Statutory paternity leave in the UK is currently one to two weeks paid , far shorter than the maternal entitlement. However, the equal parenting leave policy now allows couples to flip roles, enabling fathers to take extended leave immediately following the mother's period if both parents choose this arrangement.
The gap between maternity and paternity entitlements
The contrast between UK paternity and maternity leave is stark. While fathers are entitled to one or two weeks of paid leave, mothers can access up to 52 weeks of maternity leave, with 39 weeks paid . This disparity reflects historical patterns in parental responsibility and workplace policy that have only recently begun to shift.
The brevity of paternity leave creates practical challenges for families trying to balance career and parenting. Many fathers return to work within days of their child's birth , leaving primary caregiving responsibilities concentrated on mothers during the critical early months.
Equal parenting leave: a new flexibility
The equal parenting leave option represents a meaningful shift in UK policy. Couples can now divide parental leave more equally , with the father taking up to six months of leave following the mother's initial period if both agree. This flexibility allows families to structure parental care around their own circumstances rather than fixed gender roles.
As Lamara Thorne discusses in the episode , navigating these policies as a working parent requires careful planning. When she took six months off after her first child was born over 13 years ago, she returned on a part-time basis of 30 hours per week—a decision that supported her continued career progression at Pax8 while acknowledging her parenting responsibilities.
"If a job's worth doing you do it as well as you can to your capacity and your ability and if you can't then you do need to look at is this right for me still."
Lamara Thorne — Team Member, Academy Team at Pax8. A working parent with three children, Thorne has navigated returning to work after maternity leave and has progressed significantly in her career at Pax8 while actively mentoring new hires through structured onboarding processes.
The reality for many families is that the cost of full-time nursery care—approximately fourteen and a half thousand pounds per year for a child under two —often outweighs the financial benefit of returning to work at full capacity, making flexible arrangements essential.
Statutory paternity leave in the UK is one to two weeks paid, significantly shorter than the 39 weeks of paid maternity leave available.
Equal parenting leave policies now permit couples to allocate up to six months of leave each, enabling more flexible distribution of parental responsibility.
The financial and practical realities of early parenting often require parents—particularly mothers—to adjust their working patterns rather than return immediately at full capacity.
Policy flexibility around return-to-work arrangements can support both parental wellbeing and continued career progression.
How much statutory maternity leave is available in the UK?
The UK offers up to 52 weeks of statutory maternity leave, with 39 weeks paid . Additionally, the government has introduced equal parenting leave provisions that allow six months off for the mother and six months for the father, though uptake of these shared options remains extremely limited.
Understanding maternity leave entitlements is essential for working parents and employers alike. The statutory framework provides a safety net, but the reality of returning to work presents challenges that go far beyond the headline figures. Sophie Dowsett-Smith and Lamara Thorne discuss these complexities on The Athena Rebels Podcast , grounding the policy discussion in lived experience.
The paid weeks matter more than the total allowance
While 52 weeks sounds generous, only 39 of those weeks are paid . The remaining 13 weeks are unpaid, which creates a practical barrier for many families. For mothers considering whether they can afford time away from work, the paid weeks represent the true financial threshold of their leave entitlement.
Lamara Thorne took six months off after the birth of her first child over 13 years ago, returning on a part-time basis of 30 hours per week. This staggered return, rather than a full-time jump, allowed her to manage the transition more smoothly—a option some employers offer, though it remains far less common than returning full-time immediately.
Shared parental leave exists but remains rarely used
The UK introduced equal parenting leave provisions allowing both parents to take six months each , yet this option sees minimal uptake. The structure exists on the statute books, but cultural expectations, financial pressure (particularly the gap between statutory and actual household need), and workplace culture mean that most families do not take advantage of this flexibility.
For context on the real financial barriers families face, as discussed in this episode , full-time nursery care for a child under two in the UK costs approximately £14,500 per year. This cost often exceeds the difference between paid and unpaid leave, forcing families into difficult financial calculations regardless of the statutory entitlements available to them.
"If a job's worth doing you do it as well as you can to your capacity and your ability and if you can't then you do need to look at is this right for me still."
Lamara Thorne — Team Member, Academy Team at Pax8. A working parent with three children who has navigated the complexities of returning to work after maternity leave, Thorne brings real-world insight to policy discussion. Over 13 years, she has progressed significantly within Pax8 while maintaining her commitment to mentoring new hires and supporting other working parents through structured onboarding processes.
The lived reality of maternity leave extends far beyond statutory weeks. The Athena Rebels Podcast explores additional challenges including the psychological and professional toll of return-to-work transitions , data on how over 80 percent of UK mothers report returning to work as very tough, and workplace culture shifts needed to support working parents in tech and beyond.
UK statutory maternity leave is 52 weeks total, but only 39 weeks are paid, creating a real financial limit for many families.
Equal parenting leave allowing six months each for mother and father is available but rarely used due to cultural and financial barriers.
The return to work after maternity leave remains challenging for the majority of UK mothers, requiring careful planning around childcare costs and role flexibility.
Employers and colleagues play a critical role in shaping whether working parents can successfully navigate the return-to-work transition with confidence.
What is the cost of full-time nursery care for a child under two in the UK?
Full-time nursery care for a child under two costs approximately £14,500 per year in the UK. This expense creates a significant financial barrier for many parents considering return to work, as the cost can rival or exceed the salary they would earn.
The financial reality of childcare is a critical factor in the return-to-work decision for UK parents. 80 percent of UK mothers report that returning to work after maternity leave is very tough , and childcare costs are a central driver of this challenge. For parents of infants and toddlers, the expense becomes even more acute.
When parents calculate whether returning to work makes financial sense, they must weigh their potential salary against the £14,500 annual bill for full-time nursery care. This means many parents, particularly mothers, find that their take-home pay after childcare costs would be minimal or even negative . As discussed in The Athena Rebels Podcast , this calculation forces difficult decisions about career, timing, and family priorities.
The cost structure of childcare also intersects with statutory maternity leave provisions. UK mothers are entitled to up to 52 weeks of statutory maternity leave, with 39 weeks paid at statutory maternity pay rates. Yet once that leave ends, parents must immediately absorb the full cost of childcare—a financial cliff that makes early return to work economically unviable for many households.
"If a job's worth doing you do it as well as you can to your capacity and your ability and if you can't then you do need to look at is this right for me still."
Lamara Thorne — Team Member, Academy Team at Pax8. Lamara is a working parent with three children who has navigated the complexities of returning to work after maternity leave. She took six months off after her first child was born over 13 years ago and returned on a part-time basis of 30 hours per week. She has since progressed significantly in her career at Pax8 and actively mentors new hires through structured onboarding processes.
There is a broader policy context worth understanding here. While the UK offers statutory maternity leave, paternity leave is limited to one or two weeks paid. An equal parenting leave option—six months for mother and six months for father—exists but is rarely used, partly because it doesn't address the underlying cost barrier of nursery care itself. The episode explores how these systemic constraints force parents, especially women, into a difficult calculus between career continuity and financial feasibility.
Beyond the headline cost, there are hidden dimensions to this issue. The financial pressure affects not only individual household decisions but also talent retention in sectors like tech— over 50 percent of women in the UK tech industry leave by age 35 , a period that often coincides with early parenting years and the peak cost of childcare for multiple children.
The wider impact on return-to-work decisions
The £14,500 annual cost for under-two nursery care doesn't exist in isolation. Parents must often arrange childcare for school-age children as well, holiday cover, and backup arrangements. The cumulative effect can make full-time work financially unviable for one parent, typically the lower earner—in most UK households, still the mother.
This cost structure has knock-on effects for career trajectories. Parents who step back to part-time work or pause their careers to manage childcare costs may find re-entry difficult later, wage progression stalled, and advancement opportunities reduced. The Athena Rebels podcast delves deeper into how employers and individuals can navigate these structural challenges while maintaining both career momentum and family stability.
What percentage of women in the UK tech industry leave by age 35?
Over 50 percent of women in the UK tech industry leave by age 35. This statistic is particularly striking when overlaid against the prime child-rearing years that coincide with this same period of professional life.
The timing trap: career and family collide
The significance of this figure becomes sharper when you understand what happens around returning to work after maternity leave. 80 percent of UK mothers report that returning to work after maternity leave is extremely tough , a figure that compounds when the workplace culture is as demanding as tech.
For women in tech specifically, the pressure isn't just about juggling two roles—it's about doing both in an industry where presence and availability are often equated with commitment. As discussed in The Athena Rebels Podcast , the practical and emotional strain of this balance forces many women to make a choice: remain in the industry or step back.
The age 35 threshold matters because by then, many women have already navigated their first return to work and made progress in their careers. Yet they often find themselves facing a second, harder decision about whether that career path remains sustainable alongside family responsibilities.
"If a job's worth doing you do it as well as you can to your capacity and your ability and if you can't then you do need to look at is this right for me still."
Lamara Thorne — Team Member, Academy Team at Pax8. Lamara is a working parent with three children who has navigated returning to work after maternity leave firsthand. She took six months off after her first child was born over 13 years ago and returned on a part-time basis of 30 hours per week. She has since progressed significantly in her career at Pax8 and actively mentors new hires through structured onboarding processes.
The statistic also reflects broader structural issues: statutory paternity leave in the UK is only one to two weeks paid , while mothers can take up to 52 weeks of maternity leave (with 39 weeks paid). This imbalance means that parenting responsibilities fall disproportionately on women, leaving them with fewer realistic options for truly equal partnership in both work and home life.
Beyond policy, there's a cultural dimension that the hosts explore at length in this episode —the expectation that women can somehow "do it all" without trade-offs, while simultaneously being held to the same performance standards as colleagues without caregiving responsibilities. By age 35, many women have decided that this equation doesn't work, and they leave.
The cost of staying versus the cost of leaving
The decision to leave often comes down to practical economics. Full-time nursery care for a child under two costs approximately £14,500 per year in the UK, which can consume a significant portion of a salary, particularly for women earlier in their careers or in roles that don't command the highest salaries.
What makes this statistic urgent for the tech industry is that these women aren't leaving tech because they lack ability or ambition—they're leaving because the structural and cultural barriers make the cost (in time, stress, and money) too high. Understanding this distinction matters for employers who want to retain talent and for women themselves who may feel they've somehow failed by stepping back.
Over 50% of women in UK tech leave by age 35, a critical loss of experienced talent and institutional knowledge.
80% of UK mothers find returning to work after maternity leave extremely tough, a challenge that the tech industry often amplifies through cultural expectations.
Unequal parental leave policy (one to two weeks for fathers versus 39 weeks for mothers) reinforces the burden of childcare falling primarily on women.
The decision to leave is often economic and structural rather than a choice about career commitment or capability.
From Finance Expert to MSP Voice: Building a Business and a Brand | Pax8 - The Athena Rebels Podcast Episode 10
What is Heather McDonnell-Alford's philosophy on cash flow management for MSPs?
Cash flow is the most misunderstood financial concept among MSPs, who often confuse money sitting in the account with true financial health. Heather McDonnell-Alford advocates for a strict pot system — maintaining separate savings accounts for corporation tax, personal tax, cyber investment, salaries, and other known liabilities — ensuring funds are always reserved and available when obligations arrive.
The Visibility Problem: Money in the Account Is Not Profit
Most MSPs believe they are financially healthy simply because there is money in the account at the end of the month. This surface-level view misses a critical reality: they never examine the bottom of the P&L . A healthy bank balance means nothing if liabilities are looming — tax bills, compliance costs, planned technology investments, or salary obligations that have not yet been accounted for.
This gap between cash and actual profit is where MSPs stumble. As Heather McDonnell-Alford explains in The Athena Rebels Podcast , the confusion stems from a lack of structured financial visibility. Without a system to ring-fence money, business owners spend from a pool that should be reserved, then face shocks when bills arrive.
The Pot System: Compartmentalizing Financial Obligation
McDonnell-Alford's solution is deceptively simple: separate savings pots for each financial responsibility . Rather than holding all cash in a single operating account, the pot system creates ringfenced reserves for:
Corporation tax — set aside immediately from profit
Personal tax — personal liability that must be funded separately
Cyber investment — strategic spending on security infrastructure
Salaries and payroll — committed recurring costs
Other known liabilities — compliance, insurance, contingencies
Each pot grows month-by-month as revenue comes in. When a liability matures — a tax payment due, a cyber security refresh planned — the money is already there. There are no surprises, no scrambling, and no cash flow crises born from hidden obligations.
This approach transforms cash flow from a mysterious number into a predictable machine. Discussed at length in this podcast episode , the pot system forces business owners to know their obligations and plan accordingly — the fundamental difference between financial health and financial delusion.
P&L (Profit & Loss statement): A financial document showing revenue, costs, and profit over a period. MSPs often overlook it, focusing only on bank balance instead of understanding whether their business is actually profitable after all expenses. "When you speak about something personally online, share the scar, not the wound. If you're still in the trauma, it's the other side."
Heather McDonnell-Alford — Owner of Counting Creators, an MSP finance company specializing in outsourced accounting, tax compliance, and financial strategy for managed service providers. Having niched down into the MSP space within five months of founding her business, McDonnell-Alford has become a recognized voice in MSP financial management, speaking at industry events including the MSP Show 2025, Pax8 Amsterdam, and IT Nation London. She built her professional profile and expanded her speaking opportunities primarily through LinkedIn-driven thought leadership.
Beyond cash flow mechanics, McDonnell-Alford's broader philosophy emphasizes transparency and authenticity in how business owners present their financial realities. The principle of sharing processed experience rather than raw crisis reflects her approach to helping MSPs — moving beyond surface panic to structured, documented solutions. Her work through Counting Creators, as detailed in The Athena Rebels Podcast , demonstrates how finance becomes both a technical discipline and a communication challenge in building sustainable MSP operations.
What advice does Heather McDonnell-Alford give to women who want to put themselves out there professionally but are afraid of criticism?
Heather's advice is simply to do it, but to do it with the right people around you. She acknowledges that criticism will come, often from unexpected sources…
How does Heather McDonnell-Alford handle self-doubt and imposter syndrome as a business owner with ADHD?
Heather acknowledges that having ADHD comes with a very harsh inner voice and an extremely high level of self-expectation, which can lead to being very hard…
What does Heather McDonnell-Alford mean by 'share the scar, not the wound' when posting personal content online?
McDonnell-Alford's principle is straightforward: only share a personal or difficult experience publicly once you have fully processed it and reached the other side — the scar stage — not while the pain is still raw and unresolved. Sharing from a place of open wounds serves you; sharing from a scar serves your audience.
Divorce, therapy, and the decision to wait before going public
McDonnell-Alford uses her own divorce as the clearest illustration of this principle. She did not post about it while she was living through it. She waited until she had completed significant therapy and had genuinely settled — emotionally — with the experience.
Only then did she speak about it publicly. By that point, the content was no longer about her processing pain. It was about offering something useful to people who might be going through something similar. The distinction matters: one is self-expression, the other is service.
This approach is especially relevant for professionals building a personal brand on LinkedIn — a platform where McDonnell-Alford spent approximately 15 hours per week in the early stages of growing her visibility. As she discusses in The Athena Rebels Podcast , authenticity on that platform is everything — but authenticity is not the same as oversharing.
Why timing changes everything: the difference between a wound and a scar
A wound is open. It is still changing, still reactive, still capable of infection. A scar is closed. It is evidence of something survived, not something still happening.
When you post from the wound stage, the content tends to reflect your current emotional state rather than any considered insight. The risk is that it pulls readers into your unresolved experience rather than illuminating something for them. McDonnell-Alford's point — explored in depth during this episode of the Athena Rebels Podcast — is that personal content has to clear a threshold of usefulness before it belongs in a public professional space.
That threshold is emotional resolution. Once you can talk about something with steadiness, with perspective, with something to offer — that is when it becomes content worth sharing. Until then, McDonnell-Alford's advice is to keep it private.
This principle pairs directly with her broader stance on personal branding: your LinkedIn presence is a reflection of who you are, and it needs to be intentional at every level. It is a point she develops further across the full Athena Rebels Podcast episode alongside her reflections on building Counting Creators' profile in the MSP community.
"When you speak about something personally online, share the scar, not the wound. If you're still in the trauma, it's the other side."
Heather McDonnell-Alford — Owner, Counting Creators.
McDonnell-Alford founded Counting Creators, an MSP finance company handling the full range of outsourced finance functions — from mailbox management through to compliance work. She niched into the MSP space within five months of launching the business, having originally planned to serve a different market entirely. Her professional brand, built almost entirely on LinkedIn, has since opened doors to a speaking career that includes the MSP Show 2025, two stages at Pax8 Amsterdam, and IT Nation London — described in the episode as the biggest UK conference in the MSP and IT industry. McDonnell-Alford is a guest on The Athena Rebels Podcast , hosted by Sophie Dowsett-Smith at Pax8.
What is Heather McDonnell-Alford's advice for MSPs or professionals who want to start building a presence on LinkedIn?
Heather advises that you should never outsource your personal LinkedIn content because your brand is fundamentally you, and generic or AI-looking posts will…
How did Heather McDonnell-Alford build her professional brand and speaking career in the MSP industry?
Heather attributes all of her speaking opportunities directly to her LinkedIn presence, stating that without it no one would know who she is. She spent…
Why is industry-specific financial knowledge so important when accounting for MSPs?
Heather explains that knowing the MSP model means you know exactly what to look for in the accounts, such as how a Pax8 invoice should be coded across…
What are the most common financial mistakes MSPs make that Counting Creators identifies?
According to Heather McDonnell-Alford, the two most common financial misunderstandings among MSPs are poor cash flow management and an inability to…
How quickly did Heather McDonnell-Alford niche Counting Creators into the MSP space, and why?
Heather niched Counting Creators into the MSP space within five months of starting the business. She was introduced to MSPs through her first client contact…
What is Counting Creators and what does it do for MSPs?
Counting Creators is an MSP finance company that handles all outsourced finance functions — from mailbox management right through to compliance work. Founded by Heather McDonnell-Alford, it was deliberately built for the MSP space because MSP finances require a model-specific understanding that generic accountants simply don't have.
Why MSP finance is different Generic accountants tend to treat revenue and costs as straightforward buckets. MSP businesses don't work that way — their financial model has enough structural nuance that without a deeper, sector-specific lens, it's easy to miss what's really going on beneath the surface numbers. Niched by design — and within five months of launch
McDonnell-Alford didn't drift into the MSP space gradually. She niched Counting Creators into it within five months of starting the business, having originally planned to serve YouTubers and content creators.
The decision was deliberate: she saw a clear gap where MSP owners were being underserved by accountants who lacked sector knowledge. Rather than stay generalist, she moved quickly toward a community where she could make a genuine difference.
From niche firm to recognised voice in the MSP industry
Building the business was only part of the story. McDonnell-Alford also invested heavily in her personal brand — reportedly spending around 15 hours per week on LinkedIn in the early stages — which opened doors to speaking opportunities across major industry events.
Her speaking season opened at the MSP Show 2025 and closed with two stages at Pax8 Amsterdam. She has also spoken at IT Nation London, described as the biggest UK conference in the MSP and IT industry. This visibility, built through consistent presence on LinkedIn, is what brought her profile to the attention of the Athena Rebels Podcast — where she was their first ever external guest.
When you speak about something personally online, share the scar, not the wound. If you're still in the trauma, it's the other side.
Heather McDonnell-Alford — Owner, Counting Creators.
McDonnell-Alford founded Counting Creators to handle the full range of outsourced finance functions for MSPs, from day-to-day mailbox management through to compliance. She niched the business into the MSP space within five months of launch — a pivot from her original plan to serve YouTubers. She has since become a recognised voice in the MSP community, speaking at the MSP Show 2025, two stages at Pax8 Amsterdam, and IT Nation London. Her professional profile and speaking opportunities were built primarily through LinkedIn.
Counting Creators covers all outsourced finance functions for MSPs — from mailbox management to compliance work.
The niche focus on MSPs is intentional: generic accountants treat revenue and costs as simple buckets, which isn't adequate for the MSP financial model.
McDonnell-Alford niched into the MSP space within five months of starting the business, moving quickly on a market gap she clearly identified.
She built her industry profile primarily through LinkedIn, which led directly to speaking slots at major events including the MSP Show 2025, Pax8 Amsterdam, and IT Nation London.
